<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Accessibility is Not a Genre</title>
	<atom:link href="http://ztoe.net/2006/06/disability-is-not-a-genre/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://ztoe.net/feeder/?FeederAction=clicked&#038;feed=Comments+on+Articles+%28RSS2%29&#038;seed=http%3A%2F%2Fztoe.net%2F2006%2F06%2Fdisability-is-not-a-genre%2F%23comment-&#038;seed_title=Accessibility+is+Not+a+Genre</link>
	<description>by Adrian Cooke</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 25 Jan 2012 09:56:31 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Dan Todd</title>
		<link>http://ztoe.net/feeder/?FeederAction=clicked&#038;feed=Comments+on+Articles+%28RSS2%29&#038;seed=http%3A%2F%2Fztoe.net%2F2006%2F06%2Fdisability-is-not-a-genre%2F%23comment-267&#038;seed_title=Accessibility+is+Not+a+Genre#comment-267</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Todd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Jul 2006 01:11:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ztoe.net/?p=62#comment-267</guid>
		<description>I agree.  I think that this also ties into a conversation which we had here about design philosophy and how seperating your logic and your layout is simply good design.

If a site was designed using this method, then it should be a trivial matter to change from an design based on &quot;table-based layouts, IE and image maps&quot; to one using, say, AJAX and CSS2.  

What I was try to say was that sometimes we do have to ignore our principles, and that is a really hard moment to deal with the first time that you have to do it.  I really appreciate good design especially with respect to the visual elements and the logical elements of any application, but I have had to sell-out in order to get a job done on time.

However, I think that you are right about developers neglecting special needs groups.  I do not think that the majority of them do so deliberately, but do so because people at the coal face may not have had any life experiences which enable them to relate to these people on any level.  The majority of web developers I have met are usually recent graduates of either uni or high school, but live, like myself, in that charmed world of middle class ignorance.  
Most of these developers look at the world differently to other people, and some just can&#039;t visualise any kind of life experience outside of what they have personally experienced.

On a side note, this is why I have been most motivated and influenced by people who are empathic and/or who make deliberate life choices which put them into a different sphere of experience that what their &quot;meat and two veg&quot; life would ordinarily have in store for them.  One particularly inspiring person has spent a significant amount of time in the very alien worlds of Japan and the Ivy League.

Keeping in mind the developers limited life experiences, it surely follows that the producers of major user agents are morally obliged to improving the compliance to standards so that all groups can enjoy the benefits of the electronic age. I imagine that they should be responsible for this in the same way that car manufacturers are responsible for passenger safety.  If they was no responsibility or obligation, then our vehicles will still have steel dashboards and lap belts.

It seems that the people with the most to gain from this brave new world are the ones that are the most left out of it.  I find it absolutely repulsive that Bill Gates can retire from his position in Microsoft so that he can spend more time on his philantrophic charity and leave such an obvious method of enriching the lives of many so poorly execcuted.  Lets just hope that his aid projects are more complete.

What can I do about it?  I think that I can take the same tack as yourself and do what I can, whenever I can to use, develop and plan for standards compliant, accessible code.  I can also put my support behind the user agents that are the most standards compliant and accessible.  I can also make uninformed comment on other people&#039;s blogs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree.  I think that this also ties into a conversation which we had here about design philosophy and how seperating your logic and your layout is simply good design.</p>
<p>If a site was designed using this method, then it should be a trivial matter to change from an design based on &#8220;table-based layouts, IE and image maps&#8221; to one using, say, AJAX and CSS2.  </p>
<p>What I was try to say was that sometimes we do have to ignore our principles, and that is a really hard moment to deal with the first time that you have to do it.  I really appreciate good design especially with respect to the visual elements and the logical elements of any application, but I have had to sell-out in order to get a job done on time.</p>
<p>However, I think that you are right about developers neglecting special needs groups.  I do not think that the majority of them do so deliberately, but do so because people at the coal face may not have had any life experiences which enable them to relate to these people on any level.  The majority of web developers I have met are usually recent graduates of either uni or high school, but live, like myself, in that charmed world of middle class ignorance.<br />
Most of these developers look at the world differently to other people, and some just can&#8217;t visualise any kind of life experience outside of what they have personally experienced.</p>
<p>On a side note, this is why I have been most motivated and influenced by people who are empathic and/or who make deliberate life choices which put them into a different sphere of experience that what their &#8220;meat and two veg&#8221; life would ordinarily have in store for them.  One particularly inspiring person has spent a significant amount of time in the very alien worlds of Japan and the Ivy League.</p>
<p>Keeping in mind the developers limited life experiences, it surely follows that the producers of major user agents are morally obliged to improving the compliance to standards so that all groups can enjoy the benefits of the electronic age. I imagine that they should be responsible for this in the same way that car manufacturers are responsible for passenger safety.  If they was no responsibility or obligation, then our vehicles will still have steel dashboards and lap belts.</p>
<p>It seems that the people with the most to gain from this brave new world are the ones that are the most left out of it.  I find it absolutely repulsive that Bill Gates can retire from his position in Microsoft so that he can spend more time on his philantrophic charity and leave such an obvious method of enriching the lives of many so poorly execcuted.  Lets just hope that his aid projects are more complete.</p>
<p>What can I do about it?  I think that I can take the same tack as yourself and do what I can, whenever I can to use, develop and plan for standards compliant, accessible code.  I can also put my support behind the user agents that are the most standards compliant and accessible.  I can also make uninformed comment on other people&#8217;s blogs.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Ads</title>
		<link>http://ztoe.net/feeder/?FeederAction=clicked&#038;feed=Comments+on+Articles+%28RSS2%29&#038;seed=http%3A%2F%2Fztoe.net%2F2006%2F06%2Fdisability-is-not-a-genre%2F%23comment-257&#038;seed_title=Accessibility+is+Not+a+Genre#comment-257</link>
		<dc:creator>Ads</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Jul 2006 15:56:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ztoe.net/?p=62#comment-257</guid>
		<description>I agree with 90% of your comments Dan. My post was not aimed at people who would prefer to author accessible sites but who are hampered by the demands of their job. It was directed at the notion that there is such a corner of the web whose sites are only relevant to disabled people, and conversely that disabled people are only interested in that corner of the web. People who can&#039;t, for whatever reason, use a visual browser have just as much right to be able to access, for example, Target&#039;s online store as short people or blondes. (Refer to the Target vs. &lt;acronym title=&quot;National Federation of the Blind&quot;&gt;NFB&lt;/acronym&gt; suit and ensuing &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.boxofchocolates.ca/archives/2006/02/09/taking-aim-at-target-dot-com&quot; title=&quot;Box of Chocolates: Taking Aim at Target(.com)&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;debate&lt;/a&gt; on Derek Featherstone&#039;s blog, amongst others for examples of the intransigent attitudes of developers who don&#039;t see this as a fundamental social equity problem.)

As for the time it takes to make your site accessible, yes, if you&#039;re a large retailer that&#039;s invested everything in table-based layouts, IE and image maps then it will cost you a lot of money to shift towards universal access. But some of the things that would enable disabled people to access web sites more readily are so trivial to achieve that the best answer as to why they are so commonly overlooked is &lt;a href=&quot;http://weblog.200ok.com.au/2006/02/should-ignorance-be-our-real-target.html&quot; title=&quot;The 200ok Weblog: Should Ignorance Be Our Real Target?&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;ignorance&lt;/a&gt;, or perhaps outright bigotry. Judging by some of the comments made over the Target affair (which, to be clear, was not at all the subject of my original post, nor or course your own comments) there are a lot of web developers out there who think that if you can&#039;t see you should just shut up and have a friend drive you to the bricks and mortar store.

So in the immortal words of The Dude, and George H. W. Bush before him, &quot;This aggression will not stand, man.&quot; I know there are challenges, but I think it&#039;s important that the web developer community does not dismiss them lightly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with 90% of your comments Dan. My post was not aimed at people who would prefer to author accessible sites but who are hampered by the demands of their job. It was directed at the notion that there is such a corner of the web whose sites are only relevant to disabled people, and conversely that disabled people are only interested in that corner of the web. People who can&#8217;t, for whatever reason, use a visual browser have just as much right to be able to access, for example, Target&#8217;s online store as short people or blondes. (Refer to the Target vs. <acronym title="National Federation of the Blind">NFB</acronym> suit and ensuing <a href="http://www.boxofchocolates.ca/archives/2006/02/09/taking-aim-at-target-dot-com" title="Box of Chocolates: Taking Aim at Target(.com)" rel="nofollow">debate</a> on Derek Featherstone&#8217;s blog, amongst others for examples of the intransigent attitudes of developers who don&#8217;t see this as a fundamental social equity problem.)</p>
<p>As for the time it takes to make your site accessible, yes, if you&#8217;re a large retailer that&#8217;s invested everything in table-based layouts, IE and image maps then it will cost you a lot of money to shift towards universal access. But some of the things that would enable disabled people to access web sites more readily are so trivial to achieve that the best answer as to why they are so commonly overlooked is <a href="http://weblog.200ok.com.au/2006/02/should-ignorance-be-our-real-target.html" title="The 200ok Weblog: Should Ignorance Be Our Real Target?" rel="nofollow">ignorance</a>, or perhaps outright bigotry. Judging by some of the comments made over the Target affair (which, to be clear, was not at all the subject of my original post, nor or course your own comments) there are a lot of web developers out there who think that if you can&#8217;t see you should just shut up and have a friend drive you to the bricks and mortar store.</p>
<p>So in the immortal words of The Dude, and George H. W. Bush before him, &#8220;This aggression will not stand, man.&#8221; I know there are challenges, but I think it&#8217;s important that the web developer community does not dismiss them lightly.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Dan</title>
		<link>http://ztoe.net/feeder/?FeederAction=clicked&#038;feed=Comments+on+Articles+%28RSS2%29&#038;seed=http%3A%2F%2Fztoe.net%2F2006%2F06%2Fdisability-is-not-a-genre%2F%23comment-256&#038;seed_title=Accessibility+is+Not+a+Genre#comment-256</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Jul 2006 23:16:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ztoe.net/?p=62#comment-256</guid>
		<description>I am also a fan of &quot;bottom up&quot; website design, although my days of working on code are fading into the past.  I remember when CSS was the next big thing.  I like neat code, and while I may not write my code in the conventional manner, I hope that my work is easy to follow and to understand.  

While I am completely supportive of your desire to ensure that your work is standards compliant and accessible, there will always be a case where your best efforts will fail.  For example, there is not certainty that a screen reader will understand anything that you refer to in JavaScript.  

Having been involved in the development of a complex web app, I have seen that it is really easy for the decision makers to enforce a speed to market preference over a standards compliance.  In an ideal world, it would not take additional resource to design, build or test perfect HTML, but it does.  I respect the work that you have done and the choice in tools that you have made, but how much less time would you have spent on your projects if you just focused on making them work correctly in Internet Explorer for Windows (or Safari for Mac)?  They wouldn&#039;t work as you&#039;d like on other platforms, but they might just work enough.  

I certainly hope that you are able to stick to your guns on this matter, but please don&#039;t get too frustrated if you are working to a externally imposed timeline and they want the job done to show their immediate client.

The real issue as I see it is that User Agents accept broken code and different agents react to the same code in different ways.  Look at the IE/Mozilla CSS thing.  I think that there should be more pressure on Browser developers to construct truly standards compliant UAs.  I&#039;ve read part of the W3C HTML specs and it didn&#039;t appear ambigous to me.  Lets face it, everyone has IE of some flavour - either to use as their main browser or to test for the &quot;great unwashed&quot; who do.  Once IE demands standard compliance, then the web will be the Utopia that socially aware developers crave.  Or at least if they handle HTML and CSS markup as per the W3C specs, then that&#039;d be a huge start.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am also a fan of &#8220;bottom up&#8221; website design, although my days of working on code are fading into the past.  I remember when CSS was the next big thing.  I like neat code, and while I may not write my code in the conventional manner, I hope that my work is easy to follow and to understand.  </p>
<p>While I am completely supportive of your desire to ensure that your work is standards compliant and accessible, there will always be a case where your best efforts will fail.  For example, there is not certainty that a screen reader will understand anything that you refer to in JavaScript.  </p>
<p>Having been involved in the development of a complex web app, I have seen that it is really easy for the decision makers to enforce a speed to market preference over a standards compliance.  In an ideal world, it would not take additional resource to design, build or test perfect HTML, but it does.  I respect the work that you have done and the choice in tools that you have made, but how much less time would you have spent on your projects if you just focused on making them work correctly in Internet Explorer for Windows (or Safari for Mac)?  They wouldn&#8217;t work as you&#8217;d like on other platforms, but they might just work enough.  </p>
<p>I certainly hope that you are able to stick to your guns on this matter, but please don&#8217;t get too frustrated if you are working to a externally imposed timeline and they want the job done to show their immediate client.</p>
<p>The real issue as I see it is that User Agents accept broken code and different agents react to the same code in different ways.  Look at the IE/Mozilla CSS thing.  I think that there should be more pressure on Browser developers to construct truly standards compliant UAs.  I&#8217;ve read part of the W3C HTML specs and it didn&#8217;t appear ambigous to me.  Lets face it, everyone has IE of some flavour &#8211; either to use as their main browser or to test for the &#8220;great unwashed&#8221; who do.  Once IE demands standard compliance, then the web will be the Utopia that socially aware developers crave.  Or at least if they handle HTML and CSS markup as per the W3C specs, then that&#8217;d be a huge start.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

<!-- Dynamic Page Served (once) in 0.220 seconds -->

